Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
® random (in the United Kingdom) 24 Dec 2001 at 12:28 GMT

htt
p://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/england/newsid_1727000/1727013.stm

How many people thought this was going to happen? And this is someone who'd only been accused of a
crime, not found guilty.

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
Toby (in the United Kingdom) 24 Dec 2001 at 14:11 GMT

Yes this was in the news yesterday but made no headlines whatsoever. Most people I suppose think "he
got what he deserved" but he did deny the charges, he was 64 years old and summary executions seem
to be OK for a possible paedophile. I blame the News of the World and the modern day witch hunters.

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
L.I. (in the United Kingdom) 24 Dec 2001 at 14:14 GMT

Hmmmm, well, if your going to blame the news of the world, you should also blame the police force.
It was after all (this time round), the police who asked the NotW to name and shame a load of
paedohiles.

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
® MalB @ Work (in the United Kingdom) 24 Dec 2001 at 14:24 GMT

Toby, according to the bbc link random provided he planned to plead "not guilty". Surely this is
denying the charges?

LI it appears the NoW also printed pictures the police neither requested nor authorised.

Technically, the police did not ask the NoW to "name and shame a load of paedophiles", they asked
them to print pictures of people who were in breach of reporting orders. They could just have well
have been jumping bail. I doubt if the NoW would have been so keen to print the pictures then
though.

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
L.I. (in the United Kingdom) 24 Dec 2001 at 14:26 GMT

The way I read it, was that the NotW were printing the names and photos of the people the police
didn't know where they were. But I don't doubt that others were printed too.

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
® dcfctony (in the United Kingdom) 24 Dec 2001 at 14:28 GMT

Bloody hell! Joe McCarthy is alive and well, after all! This is disturbing news, indeed!

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
® adl (in Canada) 24 Dec 2001 at 14:37 GMT

As an ex-newspaper man I am greatly saddened by this story. When I worked in papers we had a hell of
a time getting any cooperation with the police. However, every now and then the RCMP (Royal
Canadian Mounted Police) would be all over us with details of an upcoming case. That always made me
suspicious - what was their agenda?

Lately I have become increasing bothered by this public naming of paedophiles, in particular. What
has been happening in Canada and the US is that the police have started contacting media, telling
them there is a convicted paedophile living in your area. Neighbours then act like the
touch-bearing mobs which chased Frankenstein through the woods. They hound these people out of
their homes, to another community, where the whole thing starts again. What bothers me about this
is that if a convicted paedophile is living in a community, it means he has served his time in jail
and is deemed to have paid his debt to society and has all the rights of the rest of us.

The second thing that this story illustrates is that justice is not blind. We are all presumed to be
innocent until proven guilty. The reality is that in most Commonwealth countries, the moment you're
charged people just assume you're guilty. Why else would you be charged? The police haven't got
anything against you, have they? The police don't have an agenda ...

As gay men, we should all fear stories like this. Why? Because most people already think we're
paedophiles or paedophiles-in-waiting; that we're so driven by our dicks we can't control
ourselves. So when we become old, and if we live on our own, we will probably become targets. First
of kids having a lark, then it will build until we're seen as the strange man down the street.
Someone will say they wouldn't surprised by anything we do and then it will take on a life of its
own. Witch hunts have not died out, they've just gone mainstream and hightech.

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
® MalB @ Work (in the United Kingdom) 24 Dec 2001 at 14:48 GMT

adl, the situation here is slightly different.

A year or 2 ago, the law was changed to introduce a "sex-offenders register". Anyone convicted AFTER
that time of certain categories of offence went on the register after serving their sentence. They
are then obliged to keep the police and/or probation service informed of their whereabouts. This
knowledge is not public.

Following one high-profile case last year, the News of the World started a campaign to allow public
access to that information and, as part of that campaign started to print names and photographs of
people who had served sentences but had been released before the register came into effect. The
results of this were much as you'd expect: innocent people with the same name or people who
resembled the photographs were hounded out of their homes by vigilante mobs. One crowd even
attacked the home of a paediatrician because they couldn't tell the difference.

A couple of weeks ago, the police asked the NoW to publish names and pictures of people who were on
the register but had failed to report. Effectively these people have broken the law and are on the
run. However, it appears that the NoW included at least one individual whose whereabouts were
known, who had not breached his obligations to register and who was not included in the police's
list.

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
® adl (in Canada) 24 Dec 2001 at 15:04 GMT

But Mal, surely being charged still means innocent until proven guilty?

We have a sex-offender register as well. My nieces have young children, so I am as concerned for
their welfare as anyone else is for their families. However, I am concerned that we are allowing a
mob hysteria to make laws instead of what is best public policy. I am torn on this issue - these
people pray on those who are too young and small to defend themselves, so give extra help to the
children by way of a register. But the civil liberitarian in me is also concerned about the
far-ranging implications of such special conditions for criminals who have served their time and,
in theory, paid their debt to society.

I am also concerned when the police and media get too cozy. In an age of cutbacks, will the police
give over some of their investigative work to a sensationalist media? I am shocked at how stupid
the police are in tracking people down. As an example, I was due in court on a motor vehicle case -
there was a police roadblock and I didn't have my car registration and insurance available. (They
were in the car, but I was moving offices and couldn't find them in time.) The day I was due in
court I had the flu, so I called the Crown's office and said I couldn't make it, would they give me
a new date? A warrant for my arrest was issued. It took them three months to find me! Now, I used
to be general manager of the local newspaper, one of the Crown's is also a partner in a law firm
who represents a company whose board I sit on, I had been to a barbecue with the Crown during this
time, he knew my home address and telephone number, so did the newspaper. Yet, the other Crown
stood in court and claimed they couldn't find me! Jesus, we live in a series of small towns (pop.s
ranging from 3,300 to 5,500) and they couldn't find me!? Tried looking in the phone book? Tried
calling the newspaper? BTW, I also wrote a column for the paper.

I am not one for giving the benefit of the doubt to the police or papers or prosecution. Sometimes,
they just want to reduce their workload.

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
® MalB @ Work (in the United Kingdom) 24 Dec 2001 at 15:13 GMT

adl, of course being charged does not prove guilt and, in theory at least, should not even imply it.
The register is for those who have been convicted, not those who are have been charged. Appearing
on the register and the associated reporting requirements are part of the sentence so they cannot
be said to have "served their time". This is also why it can only apply to those CONVICTED after
the law came into effect not those RELEASED after that date.

The guy whose death triggered this thread was, by all legal definitions, innocent. Whether or not he
actually committed these crimes can never now be proved.

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
EW (in the United Kingdom) 24 Dec 2001 at 15:19 GMT

Yes while abhorring the actions of paedophiles, it is a much worse offence to me to beat to death a
blind pensioner. This would normally raise cries of horror from Joe Public - but in this case the
rules of hysteria seem to apply - to quote the BBC article - "he had it coming to him".

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
® Bee (in the United Kingdom) 24 Dec 2001 at 15:47 GMT

Sod it, this is horrendous. When mob law starts to rule, all sanity goes out of the window. I'm not
commenting either way on his guilt or innocence but the poor bloke at least deserved to state his
case and have a fair trial, and be subject to his punishment from that source, not to have his
skull bashed in.

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
® MalB @ Work (in the United Kingdom) 24 Dec 2001 at 15:50 GMT

Quite.

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
® random (in the United Kingdom) 24 Dec 2001 at 22:05 GMT

That was my thought exactly. This is someone who's been accused of a crime committed several years
ago, and not even found guilty of it - and blind, which makes attacking him an absolutely vile act
- and this still happened. If a sex offenders' register is published, this will happen far more
often.

The scary thing is, the guy was blind. There was no way he could ever be a danger to children again.

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
Moloch the Avenger (in the United Kingdom) 24 Dec 2001 at 23:30 GMT

Its about time we stopped being soft on these people.

Heterosexuals are the worst kind of people, they form vigilante mobs and kill anyone they don't
like. They use their numbers in the community to push through regressive laws and keep them there.

Its about time we poisoned the lot of the little shits. I hear strychnine is a particularly gruesome
death...

Moloch xxx

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
® Cam (in the United Kingdom) 24 Dec 2001 at 23:40 GMT

hehehe @ Moloch!

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
® adl (in Canada) 25 Dec 2001 at 00:23 GMT

You think he's joking?

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
® the enema within™ (in the United Kingdom) 25 Dec 2001 at 00:29 GMT

i agree with moloch, down with hetero's!

festive enema.

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
® Cam (in the United Kingdom) 25 Dec 2001 at 00:30 GMT

I don't know Moloch, so maybe he's serious!

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
® Moloch (in Australia) 25 Dec 2001 at 11:07 GMT

Why is there no emoticon with a raised quizzical eyebrow?

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
® Val (in the United Kingdom) 25 Dec 2001 at 11:55 GMT

I have a more humane solution to Moloch's problem...

All heterosexuals would be cryogenically frozen at puberty, warmed up periodically to keep the human
race going, then put into deep freeze again.

Arm's control would now consist mainly of checking that people only had soft handbags and wars would
be won or lost solely on the basis of the most witty invective (PQ would be Master of the New
Universe). The world would be a safer place for cranberry juice and vodka drinkers, followers of
Doctor Who and admirer's of unspeakably tone deaf pop musicians.

There could be a downside to this brave new world in that gangs of hooligan lesbots might terrorise
old queens on council estates and that hissy fit accusations of 'Breeder' or naming of suspected
breeders in the NOTW could result in the occasional ouburst of vigilante action....

Val Scrooge

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
® the enema within™ (in the United Kingdom) 25 Dec 2001 at 12:20 GMT

oooh you are awful!

festive enema.

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
® Moloch (in Australia) 25 Dec 2001 at 13:39 GMT

...but...

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
® the enema within™ (in the United Kingdom) 25 Dec 2001 at 16:11 GMT

.....I LIKE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

festive enema.

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
breezerC (in Ukraine) 26 Dec 2001 at 21:18 GMT

Although I dont usually bother with serious threads, I had to comment here, I actually dont think we
give the public much credit do we, they do NOT assume all Gay men are perverts/child molesters, the
majority of
str8 people at my work commented that, yes they were glad if he did do it, but that rightly the
majority of these cases are committed against girls, and that there is no connextion between gay
and child molesters, this is the view of shopworkers folks not bbc/theatre luvies.... GIVE STR8
HETRO PEOPLE SUM CREDIT! As for the above mentioned register, i am sorry but i believe people with
young children at risk do have a right to know what threat lies on their doorsteps and time and
time again, they do re-offend. Not relevent to guilty before trial I do agree, but i cant change
whats past . It is not right, but remember there are still victims that are alive, lets not forget
that, it isnt over for them, and this whole incident has probably made it worse and more public for
them, and sorry for being politically incorrect, but my toughts are with them. ....... breezer©

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
® Fluffy (in the United Kingdom) 27 Dec 2001 at 14:45 GMT

Will Justice be done now or is she as blind as the victim who was killed and if that is the case
willsee be struck by the same mob and who will stand up to defend her.

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
¿ Bee (in the United Kingdom) 27 Dec 2001 at 15:15 GMT

Breezer - the problem is, that on the sex offenders register are people who are only technically
guilty of a crime, and aren't paedophiles at all. For example, an 18 year old guy who slept with a
15 year old girl and got sent down for it was beaten up by a gang of guys after they found out he
was on the register, and this was his girlfriend that he'd slept with.
My point being, it is FAR too easy to make a mistake, and being on the register doesn't
automatically make you a nasty sex criminal. *sigh*

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
breezer (in the United Kingdom) 27 Dec 2001 at 20:53 GMT

I am aware who and what makes it onto the register, but I am not convinced nothing is better than
something however flawed, as i have clearly stated, I dont believe in guilty before trial is right,
my main point which seems to be overlooked is that why is it str8 people are being attacked as a
whole for thinking all gaymen are child molesters, they have more intelligence than that. Because
we are gay/bi/whatever we choose, doesnt give us the monopoly on common sense. I stated it was too
late to turn back the clock, but that the abused is still suffering, the victim, and yes I agree
they will not have the chance to see justice, but they still have a life to rebuild, and that is
who my thoughts are with. Simple. *sigh* or no *sigh*. I just think it is so easy to say str8
society, its a f*ckin minority that think this way, I'm gay there for I must be a victim is such an
easy way out dont you think?
I think flaws in the register system should be adressed, but does this mean we should abandon the
idea totally, what are the other options, and who judges what is right and wrong? A convicted
child molester is released after completing his sentence, his counselors say he is likely to
re-offend, there is nothing they can do, does this mean the family with three young child who have
been housed next door do not deserve to know? To protect their children, from what could be their
own life sentences, we should do nothing because we need a different system to differenciate
between the 18 year old who breaks the law and the 30 year old? No we make the system work, we do
not abandon it I hope. no sighs, just opinion. - breezer©

Re: Paedophile suspect killed by vigilantes
® River Thames (in the United Kingdom) 27 Dec 2001 at 21:22 GMT

I think that this is an argument that could go on and on, with most sides having a valid point.

The register *is* a bad thing, we know that innocent people and their homes have been attacked, as a
direct result of this register, they too are victims, who will probably *never* feel safe in their
homes again, now someone has been murdered, and the truth of the matter is that we will never know
whether he was guilty or not, and to me that is totally unacceptable in a civilised society. And,
of course, where does one stop with these registers, you can argue that people have a right to know
that a convicted burglar lives next door to them, if you have a mind to.

I think that the answer lies with the authorities and parents. I believe there is some validity in
the argument that if parents supervised their children more effectively, there would be far less
opportunities for these people to carry out their awful crimes, but that means parents taking more
responsiblity for their children, not fashionable these days.

And the authorities because, if it is felt that someone will reoffend, what on earth are we doing
releasing them? But, once again, this would mean the authorities taking more
responsibility/spending more money, definitely not fashionable.

In my honest opinion there is not a solution that will deal completely with this or any problem, we
don't live in a perfect world, but what sort of an answer is a register, that just causes *more*
victims?