Is Anyone Going to Church?
Tex Ritter (in the United Kingdom) 25 Dec 2000 at 00:27 GMT

Is anyone prepared to admit they will be going to Church? If you don't usually go but are going at
Xmas, I would find it interesting to know your reasons.

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
Tubbs (in the United Kingdom) 25 Dec 2000 at 11:33 GMT

I've just returned from church

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
Angel (in the United Kingdom) 26 Dec 2000 at 07:30 GMT

I went to the Midnight service on Christmas Eve and there were more than 300 people there

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
Dan1 (in the United Kingdom) 26 Dec 2000 at 17:48 GMT

I played the organ at two services over Christmas. Both had good sized congregations.

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
G&T (in Australia) 26 Dec 2000 at 21:38 GMT

I went to church three times in 24 hours . . . I hate it when Christmas is on a Monday! My partner
had to go to five services (well, he was the one leading half of them). We had about 350 people at
midnight, and 300 in the morning, and the phone didn't stop ringing all Christmas eve with
enquiries about service times, so there definitely are lots of people who only go to church on
Christmas day.

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
trouble (in the United Kingdom) 26 Dec 2000 at 22:34 GMT

lets pause for a moment of contemplation about Dan1 playing his organ in front of a congregation and
consider all tbe fnah fnah comments I (errr I mean we) could get out of that if we were coarse and
low minded enuff ... and back to the orginal subject, nope didnt go, not even to a carol service

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
Dan1 (in the United Kingdom) 27 Dec 2000 at 22:59 GMT

Thanks Trouble - there's always one . . .

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
MalB (in the United Kingdom) 28 Dec 2000 at 11:27 GMT

I went twice on Christmas Eve, there wasn't a service on Christmas Day.

Why? At least in part because I was visting my folks and they were going. It was less hassle to go
than not to.

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
Tubbs (in the United Kingdom) 28 Dec 2000 at 12:07 GMT

How old R U Malb?

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
MalB (in the United Kingdom) 28 Dec 2000 at 13:16 GMT

What's the relevance? I was a guest in their home, they were going. Even if I had no belief whatever
(which is not actually the case) then the polite thing to do was to go with them.

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
adl (in Canada) 28 Dec 2000 at 13:49 GMT

*snicker* at MalB on the defensive age thingie ...

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
MalB (in the United Kingdom) 28 Dec 2000 at 14:30 GMT

A bit pointless to be defensive considering the number of BlueRoomers present to celebrate(?) the
start of my 5th decade don't you think adl? I was simply trying to pre-empt the "old enough to make
up your own mind" argument.

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
adl (in Canada) 28 Dec 2000 at 14:36 GMT

Oh, I know what you were trying to do, but I did enjoy the implication of the question ... for once
it wasn't directed at me! :-)

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
Kalides (in the United Kingdom) 28 Dec 2000 at 14:59 GMT

Surely your parents would respect your decision not to go?

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
adl (in Canada) 28 Dec 2000 at 15:42 GMT

But guys, sometimes you and your parents reach an age where it's easier to give in and accommodate
their views for one night or one holiday. You do that because they are at the stage in life when
they start to feel that each holiday could be their last or is close to their last. You give in
because you have more time left and it's less of an issue for you, an inconvenience for you versus
a strongly held belief and value on their part. To force an arguement or cause a family rift is
over something which means nothing to you is silly and shallow.

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
Val (in the United Kingdom) 28 Dec 2000 at 17:47 GMT

Nicely put Adl. The last time I was in church was at my mother's funeral. The fact that I detest the
Christian religion (as opposed to the mystic philosopher Jesus Christ) for the way it warps and
perverts minds simply did not enter into it. It would have been unthinkable not to go. Why not?
Apart from the grevious offence it would have caused to the rest of my family, fear, I think of my
mother wielding a wet dish cloth to painful effect on my ears from beyond the grave....

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
MalB (in the United Kingdom) 28 Dec 2000 at 18:02 GMT

adl, that is more or less what I meant by "less hassle". The argument concerning polite behaviour of
guests is an additional reason to go.

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
adl (in Canada) 28 Dec 2000 at 18:34 GMT

How did I know that ...

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
Toad (in the United Kingdom) 28 Dec 2000 at 20:06 GMT

Surely going to Church is a statement of belief? It's not something one should do just to please
someone else. The problem with the christian churches is that half of the people there aren't
really Christians - just "mother pleasers"

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
Her Grace (in the United Kingdom) 28 Dec 2000 at 20:56 GMT

To go to Church is not 'a statement of belief', there is no statement involved in the act. Sometimes
in life one is forced to do things to please others or to consider the feelings of others in
deference to your own, and paradoxically for me NOT going to Church is one thing I am forced to do.


The problem with the christian churches isn't 'that half of the people there aren't really
Christians - just "mother pleasers"' it is that far too few of us go to church or have any sympathy
or understanding for our fellow man.

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
hardhat 28 Dec 2000 at 21:57 GMT

I like going to Church at Xmas, Mass for us is supposed to be an opportunity to give thanks to God
for what he has given us...besides I've a lot to give thanks for (For having a great year, meeting
you lot amongst other things)

Okay the next thing that's going to crop up is that "it's a sin for you lot to miss church" and that
"how could any gay man attend mass, with the current homophobic views of the Vatican at the moment"


Yes it is a sin to miss sunday mass and considering that we all sin daily, its just another mark on
my "sin tally".

The whole Church/gay thing is hilarious. At the moment the Catholic Church is being basically
orchestrated by an Austrian Cardinal (Ratzinger) who is head of the doctrine section. His recent
pronouncements on the unification of the churches has been devisive and insulting to all churches
involved. Lets not get started on his extreme right wing views on homosexuality. My own opinion
(for what its worth) is that God created me, with all my faults and failings. I'm gay, he made me,
why should I not be embraced in my church as a child of God and why shouldn't I avail of the Church
if I want to?

God this is getting too heavy.....quick someone, a tacky joke for some levity!

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
Moloch (in Australia) 28 Dec 2000 at 22:18 GMT

Well in order to appease the great-grandmother lizard of the cosmos I was forced to go to an
embroidery and ant-eating ceremony. It was quite well attended but the goannas were hissing loudly
at the back.

Apparently if one doesn't attend the holy skin-shedding rituals the punishment involves eternal
death, everlasting agony and a severe case of boils. I therefore decided I'd better go...

Oddly the power behind the Great Master of Skinks' throne is also called Ratzinger. He has an
inquisitorial air and a liking for snakeskin jackboots which most of us find deeply troubling.

reverantialMoloch xxx

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
G&T (in Australia) 28 Dec 2000 at 22:21 GMT

Hear hear to hardhat's comments . . . and no, churches are by no means full of 'mother-pleasers'
anymore, although one does see a lot of unfamiliar faces at Christmas services. In Australia, a
far more secular country than the UK, if people turn up to have a child baptised, to get married,
for a funeral, or even just to the carol service, it usually means that they do have some kind of
belief, and that goes for gays and straights. Although it has always struck me that so many gay
men in particular have at one time or another had a strong church connection often leaving bitter
feelings, thanks Mr Ratzinger!

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
Moloch (in Australia) 28 Dec 2000 at 22:41 GMT

Hi G&T

I'd dispute your assertion that Australia is 'more secular' than the UK. We do have a Labor (sic)
party that is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Catholic Church and a Liberal (even siccer) party
that just sold our most powerful international radio transmitter to a bunch of (admittedly English)
fundamentalists - who will no doubt spread peace and understanding through Indonesia by telling
them all that they're damned to hell unless they drop this silly Islam stuff and get REAL
religion....

Moloch xxx

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
G&T (in Australia) 28 Dec 2000 at 22:49 GMT

Yes Moloch we have as many fundos as England, but there's not the overall culture that gives the
church a high place in society etc (cf. Robert Hughes documentary!) . . . a lot of this has to do
with the Church of England being established, I think, and therefore being slightly less ignored
than churches in Australia.

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
Moloch (in Australia) 28 Dec 2000 at 22:57 GMT

I still have to disagree.

Most poms regard the Cof E as one would a rather dotty old maiden aunt - to be visited on occasion,
regarded benevolently and kissed lightly before forgetting her existence for the next year or so.

I don't think anyone would give the churches sole discretion to run job-centres and other vital
social institutions as has happened here under the aegis of the godly headkicker Tony Abbott

Moloch xxx

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
Noel (in the United Kingdom) 28 Dec 2000 at 23:08 GMT

Well said 'Hardhat' It's refreshing to hear a new topic on hera that I can identify with. Having
said that, I have heard 'Moloch's' views 1,000, times before. When is he ever going to come up with
something even remotely original???

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
Moloch (in Australia) 28 Dec 2000 at 23:18 GMT

Sorry Noel sweety!

I'll try to be as inconsistent as the average christian if it will make you happy. Sadly I have an
attachment to truth so I find it hard to be as 'intellectually supple' as most religionists.

Mwah Mwah Moloch xxx

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
Her Grace (in the United Kingdom) 29 Dec 2000 at 10:11 GMT

The point all you jumped up colonials seem to forget is that the Church of England is the State
religion. It is also a very English institution and perhaps doesn't transplant well. As with so
much else in English life it is under attack from less tolerant forces which is a great pity.

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
MalB (in the United Kingdom) 29 Dec 2000 at 10:27 GMT

Moloch, you're overlooking one particular point about the CofE being the established church. Very
few of us (with the probable exception of her grace) have a "dotty old maiden aunt" with voting
rights in the House of Lords.

For the record, it wasn't a CofE (nor even a Church of Scotland) service I attended.

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
Her Grace (in the United Kingdom) 29 Dec 2000 at 13:44 GMT

Now really Malb, I maybe dotty, but I'm damned if I'm your maiden aunt ! And I did have voting
rights in the House of Lords until you all got upperty and elected the ghastly Blair ! You should
all know your place, that's what I think, particularly these colonials. Off shooting !!

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
adl (in Canada) 29 Dec 2000 at 13:51 GMT

MalB - are you people Covenators?

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
Moloch (in Australia) 29 Dec 2000 at 13:59 GMT

Hi MalB!

I didn't take the establishment of the dear old CofE into account true, but in all honesty does it
matter to most people? With due regard for my own avowed unoriginality it seems that most
irreligious folk from christian backgrounds take their babies off to be blessed by the local church
be it established, disestablished or distinctly fractured (say, the mormons).

The befrocked bishops in the House of Lords are no more a threat to democracy than the presence of
the other chinless wonders whose distant grandsires pillaged for the monarch and were duly rewarded
(or paid off before they got even bigger ideas...)

The grand christian ideals of 'get 'em when their young', 'frighten them until they beg for it',
'preach while they're vulnerable' etc are equally applicable whether church & state are gaily
waltzing in official bliss or doing a slightly underhanded and promiscuous cha-cha as they are here
in Australia.

So I still don't think Oz is more secular than England but I do happily accept that when folk talk
about 'the church' there they have a simpler idea of what it is. Btw remember (as I'm sure Noel
knows as he takes so much of what I say to heart) I am an ex-pom from a methodist background.

Moloch xxxx

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
MalB (in the United Kingdom) 29 Dec 2000 at 14:32 GMT

M, sorry if my posting wasn't clear. I wasn't suggesting that your grace was my maiden aunt but
that, of all of us, you would be most likely to have a maiden aunt who still sat in the Lords.
Indeed, how could a _dowager_ duchess be a _maiden_ aunt at all.

adl, this is probably not the place to enter a discussion on the Covenanting tradition. My folks
belong to a small, presbyterian denomination very similar to the CofS in most respects but
non-established.

Moloch, it probably doesn't matter to most people. At the level of individual worship and of the
sacraments the establshiment of a denomination is of little importance. It does however change the
relationship between church and state and the perception of the UK as a secular state. (IMHO).

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
chinewrde (in the United Kingdom) 29 Dec 2000 at 14:42 GMT

perhaps you're all missing the point?

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
adl (in Canada) 29 Dec 2000 at 14:44 GMT

Sorry, MalB, I was just curious because the first Covenator Church in Canada is four miles from me.
And because we have such a large Celtic heritage here we do have the Scottish sects, esp. in Cape
Breton. Nova Scotia is latin for New Scotland. We've got a gaelic college, more highland games than
you can shake a caber at, pipe bands galore, our own tartan, gaelic papers and magazines - and,
sadly, haggis (tho' people think it's a big deal to import it from Scotland). :-(

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
MalB (in the United Kingdom) 29 Dec 2000 at 15:36 GMT

Sorry Chine *grovel*, what point would that be?

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
MalB (in the United Kingdom) 29 Dec 2000 at 16:25 GMT

What's sad about haggis? I like haggis. Of course they are best when freshly shot but the season
doesn't start until Monday and finishes on January 25th.

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
adl (in Canada) 29 Dec 2000 at 16:40 GMT

MalB - could your love of haggis (even the freshly shot ...) explain your ownership of THAT t-shirt?
'Lips that touch haggis will never touch mine ...'

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
Her Grace (in the United Kingdom) 29 Dec 2000 at 20:49 GMT

A very good point Adl. What say ye to that Malb ?!

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
hardhat 29 Dec 2000 at 21:52 GMT

BTW M, a colonial, me? I think not. Perhaps dear you are having the vapours again?

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
Dan1 (in the United Kingdom) 29 Dec 2000 at 23:23 GMT

Now we know how the church started all those wars - in a Christian way, of course!

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
hardhat 29 Dec 2000 at 23:32 GMT

This thread has really gone off the rails from what it started out on.....so back to the topic at
hand (& this excludes talk on inter-church relations, the Crusades, etc etc )

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
adl (in Canada) 29 Dec 2000 at 23:45 GMT

The line that I keep hearing is that 'I have a spirituality, but not a religion.' I think a lot of
people in North America feel compelled to say that have a faith, when in reality they don't. Yes,
lots of people here believe in god, but a growing number I feel feel forced to have some sort of
fall-back position. Saying you have a spirituality suggests you're a deeper thinker than perhaps is
warranted.

But organized religion still has a firm grip on a vast portion of the American public. Much more so
than in Canada, I think. At least it's a startling hold they have. Perhaps it's more noticeable in
the US because they seem to have more of the so-called fundamentalist and evangelical religions. In
a way, it sort of mirrors their banking system. In Canada we have five major banks and about that
many major denominations. In the US virtually every town and city has their own locally owned bank,
and they seem to have own church, like the snake-charming Baptists you'll find in the Appalachins.

It's interesting to me that we have seen a significant growth in the Metropolitan Church, which is
more commonly called the gay church - which by the way, is attempting to get around the laws by
posting bonds for a gay couple and allowing them to be married in church with a cleryman presiding.


We also have one of the largest Buddhist sects with their world headquarters a few miles from my
home. Suddenly, Halifax, which is an old colonial capital with wonderful Georgian and Victorian
streetscapes has a large Buddhist community, complete with schools, temples, a monestary, resource
centre, library, offices and international magazine.

People obviously feel the need for something. I envy their beliefs, but don't share them.

So there, are we back on topic?

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
Dan1 (in the United Kingdom) 30 Dec 2000 at 20:58 GMT

I think in the modern world it is often difficult for people to admit they go to church in case they
are considered 'soft'. Our present society seems to be able to explain everything and does not
always want to acknowledge a greater force outside the things it can explain. We always seem to be
told that we can 'empower' ourselves and succeed by the effort we put into things.

Organised religion always comes with a set of rules which we may not wish to take on board. The
general attitude to gays (MCC excepted) seems to be that although we may be gay, we may not be in a
relationship. A comment from a cleric was made in my presence a couple of weeks ago that people in
'church' jobs should immediately give up those jobs if they found themselves -err- outside the
churches teaching. Gays were not specifically mentioned, but I am sure a look was more than glanced
my way. (Oh that I should be so lucky.)

Even though there is a lot wrong with the church, it means a lot to me - and I hope it always does.

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
M. (in the United Kingdom) 30 Dec 2000 at 23:14 GMT

Amen to that Dan1 ! There are many who see no point in religion, but the Anglican Church (for that
is what I am) means a great deal to me, even if I do not attend as much as I ought.

Re: Is Anyone Going to Church?
adl (in Canada) 30 Dec 2000 at 23:31 GMT

I once wrote a feature about a United Church minister. The premise behind the piece was how nice it
was to have a one-day a week job. Now, before you shout, I know it's more than one-day a week, but
that's the perception. When I told the minister my idea, he just about fell off his chair. 'One day
a week! I have two computers just to run this parish!!'

The church does give a lot of comfort to a lot of people. I don't take that from it. My problem is
when the churchmen (those with positions in the establishment, ie The Pope) use the church to
batter people like us.

Interesting too that earlier this week I was watching the latest installments of Castways, about
those people on that Scottish island. The 7th Day Adventist was making nasty comments about the
community's one gay guy. Now, there were a lot of things to go on to him about, but she was making
comments about how he was wrong to sleep with me and so forth. We've heard them all before.

I used to socialize with a Catholic priest (of the Roman kind). He didn't become a priest until he
was 40 and thought that many of the younger guys in the seminary didn't understand what they were
giving up. Michele loved his sex life. He went to the Archbishop and told him he wanted to be a
priest, but couldn't live without sex (and sex with men). The AB told him to be discrete! (There is
a shortage of priests in North America, so when it suits them, the church is prepared to turn a
blind eye.)

There is another bishop in this province who is a nasty piece of work. He has driven more priests
and nuns from their calling and gotten parishes to engage in almost blood-letting. It's this type
of man which causes me to have great, great concerns about organized religion.

My mother's church was engulfed in a big scandal - it just about broke the parish financially - and
she and her friends left because of all the sleazy things the church was doing. (It was a Baptist
congregation.) There were calls to 1-900 numbers from the church off (900 numbers are sex lines),
the head of the choir (the minister's wife) actually stopped the choir and screamed at the
congregation to pay attention (people coughed). There was financial mismanagement and simple people
were being taken to the cleaners - they were signing loans for the parish. It was sad and
outrageous. The church sent in their team to try to heal the parish, but nothing worked. The camps
were so entrenched that even the bridge-builders gave up.

Then we had the example of an MP from a very Catholic riding. She once sued her church to get the
Latin mass brought back. She sued again to be
able to kneel - I'm not RC so I don't understand all the naunces. After she was elected to
Parliament she launched a family values campaign against the "homosexualist agenda". Again, all
done in the name of Christ.

I live in one small province with a population of less than a million people and don't hang in
religious circles and those are the sad examples I can come up with without thinking about it.

I don't think the message has to change - I think the people who present the message or govern how
it's delivered have to change. But how will that ever happen?